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Chairman's update
Posted by: (
Date: August 4, 2009 11:15AM

As you are aware Steam Car Club was formed some months ago in an attempt to save the steam car club movement of over 300 people from destruction. A large number of donations were sent in from members of the Steam Car Club of Great Britain Ltd to assist in the formation of a new club.

The directors of The Steam Car Club of Great Britain Ltd (Greg Walker and Barry Herbert) assumed control after an E.G.M. called by the members on the 7th May 2009 and following the resignation of the short lived board who took the club on the path to bankruptcy. These directors in an attempt to stave of bankruptcy proceedings aproached the Steam Car Club and have reached an agreement with the committee. The basics of that agreement being that subject to honouring contractual obligations to The Energy Trust, a liability of £800, Steam Car Club will be granted the sole rights to the title name of The Steam Car Club of Great Britain and magazine title ďThe Steam CarĒ plus its physical assets. This agreement has saved archives, including all the back issues of the famous magazine etc, for future generations.

Jeff Theobald will continue to edit the magazine and the web site [] also continues with a total of 20million+ hits to date.

To conclude, The Steam Car Club of Great Britain is back minus the members who caused havoc.

Basil Craske,

Edited 2 times. Last edit at 12/10/09 09:59AM by Jeff Theobald.

Re: Chairman's update
Posted by: Michael Dyke (
Date: August 4, 2009 04:39PM

Excellent news about the club Basil!
It seems they are still up to their old tricks however, they have now managed to get Father (Bob Dyke) (and any other flash boilered car) banned from the Great Dorset Steam Fair (and probably any other rally connected with the NTET) unless he gets the White's flash steam generator boiler tested AND any other pressurised system tested and certified, ie, the fuel system (which will also obviously affect us Stanley owners aswell!) This I feel is a very worrying development, if they carry on with this sort of approach we will end up with cars that can only be static exhibits. The term "opening a can of worms" springs to mind!

best regards,
Mike Dyke.

Re: Chairman's update
Posted by: (78.145.251.---)
Date: August 5, 2009 06:00AM

Hi Basil/Mike
It's good to see light at the end of the tunnel,re-the club. I know that people like Basil, Barry, Jeff and Greg have put in an awful lot of effort in time and resources in getting us there, not to mention the long suffering wives who have put up with the endless conversations,emails and phone calls. A big thankyou is deserved to all who supported the cause, to go with the satisfaction,of knowing that "common sense" won the day!

Mike, It is time some clarity was given to Forced Circulation Tube Steam Generators (flash Steam).
There appears to be confusion over the term "boiler certificate". In terms of a conventional boiler with steam storage this means, a thorough inspection and a steam test.
Reg 24 (a) states that; it is necessary for there to be a pressure vessel in the system for the regulations to apply.
PSSR does not define a pressure vessel but it is generally technically understood to be ; a vessel used to contain and/or store a gas or liquid above atmospheric pressure.
It is arguable as to weather a FCTSG is,or is not a pressure vessel and at present there is no clear statutory guidance on this issue. Given this situation it is up to the owner/operator of such vehicle/vessels to draw up a maintenance schedule together with his/hers insurance company and a competent person. It would be a foolish owner who did "nothing" in our present litigious climate.
Although the generator itself may be considered outside the regulations, it's control devices are not and will require periodic inspection and testing.
The SBA have taken a view on this and issued guidance to it's members. The guidance is issued by SBA Services Ltd and may be of help in setting up a maintenance regime for a steam car.
With regard to the fuel system;
Regulation Exception 15 (205) Reads; This provision exempts from the Regulations the fuel storage tank and fuel system of a vehicle which uses a relevant fluid for propulsion and also exempts other pressure systems found on a vehicle such as those for heating, cooking, vetilation and refrigeration
The relevant part is the fuel system storage,as the other systems are covered by other regulations.
It may be that your fuel system is less than 250bar/litres, Exception 2 (217).
The 250bar/litre rule does not apply to a system containing steam.
The fuel system on my Locomobile is tested and inspected regularly with particular attention to the PRV as this is the "safety valve" in the system and it's failure could hydraulic the system beyond safe limits.
Irispective of the actual regulation all systems need periodic inspections to maintain their safe operation
If the NTET are asking for documentation regarding vehicles with Forced Circulation Tubular Boilers then the very least they can do is state what they require instead of the loosely stated "Boiler certificate"
In order to do this they will have to have some knowledge of the operation and construction of FCTB's and I suspect this is where the problem lies.

John Hill

Re: Chairman's update
Posted by: (
Date: August 9, 2009 03:26PM

I was a little concerned to see in the current issue of 'Steaming', the magazine of the national Traction Engine Trust (NTET) that the NTET Executive '...issues advice to Rally Organisers that steam cars of any type attending an Authorised Event, or appearing in a public place, should be able to demonstrate that an independent examination of the steam generation and pressurised fuel systems has been undertaken.' Is this requirement for inspection of fuel systems rather sudden, or have I missed something? It does raise several questions in my mind.

I see in the same magazine that the new NSCA (of which I am not a member) is now affiliated to the NTET (of which I am a member) and that this policy change seems to originate with the NSCA. I know the 'old' SCCGB (of which I was a member) was affiliated to the NTET, and I presume the 'new' SCCGB (also a member) retains this affiliation.

Was SCCGB (old or new) consulted about this new policy, which would appear to go some way beyond the requirements of the law?

The NSCA is going for a major launch at the GDSF, hosted in the NTET tent. Is the SCCGB going to have its usual stand at the GDSF as well?

What does 'pressurised fuel systems' cover? For Stanley owners, does it mean air tank? Pressure bottles? Pilot tank? What constitutes a meaningful independent examination? Is this something that boiler inspectors are going to be willing or able to do? Is it something that the MoT examiner can be expected to do?

Re: Chairman's update
Posted by: Michael Dyke (
Date: August 10, 2009 04:07PM

Hi Mr Rushton,
The usual stand at GDSF is Bob Dyke's trailer set up with a banner and a lot of enthusiasm. This year,due to the advice that the organisers of GDSF have received from the NSCA (via NTET), flash boilered vehicles are banned if they don't have a boiler certificate and a NTET disc.
Therefore, depite having attended the GDSF just about every year for the last 20 years with his White in steam, creating a lot of interest in our hobby and joining up several new members to the SCCGB, as well as providing a popular exibit for the organisers, this year Bob Dyke is not attending, having been told he is not welcome without a boiler certificate.(This is despite the fact that his insurance company are perfectly happy he doesn't need one!)

I presume also that other steam cars will not be allowed that don't have some form of certification for their pressurised fuel system?!
I think perhaps the club could open some sort of dialogue with the NTET, before our cars are banned from every event in the country!
Is anyone else planning to go to Dorset to wave the club banner? Unfortunately I am unable to attend, but it would be good if someone could show the SCCGB is still going strong!


Mike Dyke.

Edited 1 times. Last edit at 08/10/09 04:12PM by Michael Dyke.

Re: Chairman's update
Posted by: Mike Clark (
Date: August 10, 2009 05:27PM

It would be interesting to know whether any steam car has a pressure test certificate for its fuel system as the general view of boiler inspectors seems to be that it is not needed. This seems to be confirmed by the information on exemptions quoted earlier by John Hill. Perhaps the G14's resident expert will enlighten us as to the protocol adopted for tests on their fuel systems.

Sadly just as we anticipated the G14 are using their relationship with the NTET to promote their foolish notions and create difficulties for the rest of us. Surprised I am not.

Re: Chairman's update
Posted by: Tim Senior (
Date: August 11, 2009 06:44AM

Common rail diesels run up to 1600 bar . Under the 250 l/at. rule the maximum volume of the system is about 6ml. (I think). What are we to do? Get the modern car tested and certificated every 14 months.
It looks to me as if the b******s can't get us one way they will try another.

I used to be member of the NTET some years ago and packed it in as I disagreed on the way it was going even then. I'm so sick of being told what to do by people with no idea and less common sense.
At the Pickering Rally this weekend I was required to be escorted by a quad bike when moving on site whilst 14 year olds were freely driving tractors.

Lets keep fighting. Regs. to all Tim Senior

Re: Chairman's update
Posted by: (---.pool1.Greenwich-GLN5000-BAS0001.orang)
Date: August 11, 2009 08:17AM

Hi all,

Hopefully to lift the mood a little, my EX 1907 has been accepted by GDSF and I will be at the top of the playpen all week hopefully not on my own!

Edited 1 times. Last edit at 08/11/09 08:23AM by terryfry.

Re: Chairman's update
Posted by: les nelson (
Date: August 12, 2009 11:43AM

Hi Terryfry. See you at GDSF, I sent my boiler test cirt to Martin Oliver and my insurance cirt along with entry form, our passes have duly arrived and unless I get some notice to the contrary I will be attending GDSF once again.
I understand that Peter Williams is to examine steam cars with a view to acceptance or not at GDSF,, begs three questions
1/ What qualifications does he have to do this? many years of engine operation do not constitute qualifications, just because one can "operate" a steam engine does not mean one is able to "design" one, and this is what he must have the knowledge so to do in order to decide if an engine is "up to standard"
2/ Who examines his car? (the question has been raised about compression fittings in the steam system) (no I do not have any in my system)
3/Who makes the final descision about a car
I am not aware of Peters "background" but am informed he is an accountant (apologies Peter if this is incorrect), this is NOT the the training required to examine my car or anyone elses as far as I can see so are the GDSF officers puting trust in a person who cannot show competence?
As far as the fuel system is concerned the Morriss steamer (to attend GDSF)has a system designed by me with a safety factor of 8 for the system as a whole

Re: Chairman's update
Posted by: (
Date: August 12, 2009 12:49PM

In response to the above postings I will explain the situation and the discoveries I have made.

I immediately phoned the promoter of The Great Dorset Steam Fair, Michael Oliver, when I was informed by members that steam cars were banned from Dorset due to letters received from Robert Herring, Chairman of the National Traction Engine Trust and David Webster, Chairman of National Steam Car Association (the G15). Please note that this ban does not apply to the G15 as they have already made arrangements to launch their new club in the NTET's tent.

A joint statement by them and Robert Herring has appeared in Old Glory and the NTET's magazine "Steaming". The response from Dorset's promoter to me was that they wanted steam cars there and he was hoping to clarify the position with Robert Herring.

I then approached the Federation of British Historical Vehicles, bearing in mind the wonderful help they had given us as a club through the years and especially over the past few months. I was informed that they had also received letters of which they took a very dim view but unfortunately they couldn't help.

I then e-mailed Robert Herring regarding the situation our club was in. I enlightened him on the past and the antics of the G15 and requested a meeting, Chairman to Chairman, to enable us to do our best for the steam car movement. He refused a meeting with me, although he did have a meeting with the NSCA!! He informed me that he would not accept affiliation with us as we did not endorse their rules (even though we had been affiliated for many years and in fact paid our affiliation fee in February of this year). I responded asking for an explanation of that assumption, bearing in mind that he knew nothing of our rules and had never contacted or spoken to us. I enlightened him on our rules which applied to steam cars on the road to include MOTs, something the NTET never mentions. I suggested that we should work together to improve dialogue and co-operation. He refused and told me to write to the NTET's Secretary in future. He never chose to mention fuel systems.

My initial e-mail to Robert Herring was forwarded to the NSCA which led to me getting a standard Stuart Gray hate e-mail that many of us have suffered. I also received an e-mail from David Webster cautioning me as to what I say, stating that they are some of the most respected individuals in the wider steam preservation movement!! He suggested that my statements were foolhardy and ill advised. I responded suggesting a meeting together and received no reply. At no time did Robert Herring or anybody else inform me of the NTET's latest rule regarding fuel systems, so how he expected anybody to know about it, other than the NSCA, I fail to understand.

We are the biggest steam car club in Europe, been a NTET affiliated club for many years, and he knows full well that some of our members attend NTET's events, yet he fails to ever seek our advice or update us on NTET policy regarding steam cars. He also failed to tell us that another steam car club was asking to be affiliated to the NTET and did we have an opinion on this application which would have enabled us to clarify the situation. I wonder why? Dorset was also notified late in the day about the NTETís latest boiler and fuel regulations. Thus the whole situation has caused utter confusion, great upset and for what reason, again, I don't understand.

Please bear in mind that the NTET rules are their own rules irrespective of what the Government and Insurance companies require and their potential Code of Practice, etc, goes against current legal advice we have received. I am shocked to have recently discovered that the NTET does not endorse PSSR 2000, something that we have been totally misled on over the past few years by the G15, I hope this is reviewed soon. Not working to Government rules is foolhardy, we all have a duty of care. Mr Herring should encourage the NTET to work to the law.

It is clear those responsible for the NTETís poor rules with respect to steam cars have no knowledge of the workings of a steam car and are too stubborn to ask our club and members for advice.

Had the NTET worked with our club a common sense agreement could have been reached jointly to the best way forward with regards to the safe running of steam cars. We could have clarified to them that MOTs are needed and also explained that this doesn't mean that a car is road legal, I'm sure you have all seen my posting on this. Our past chairman, Bill Rich, explained this some years ago yet the NTET failed to take note. I also query why Peter Williams, of all people, will be inspecting steam car documents at Dorset bearing in mind he was one of those who caused the trouble in the steam car community in the first place. Itís like a red rag to a bull. The atmosphere for steam car people attending Dorset is going to be bad enough without these new problems.

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