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Re: Steel tube for burner vaporising coil
Posted by: Nick Howell (2.29.111.---)
Date: October 9, 2012 12:26PM

Hello Mike,
Thank you for the reply and suggestions. I did wonder if the tube was getting so hot that the fuel was suffering from the Leidenfrost effect, and as you say it seems to be.

I am now clearing the two coils that I have of carbon, one in S/S and one carbon steel and re-inserting a 3/16" wire. I am also trying to reduce the fuel feed to the pilot light, which is actually a bleed off the same vaporising coil, so that the pilot doesn't burn so fiercely. I tried, unsuccessfully, to upload a photo of the pilot in action; you could boil a pan of water on that alone.

Regards

Nick

Re: Steel tube for burner vaporising coil
Posted by: Rolly (---.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
Date: October 9, 2012 03:21PM

Nick
Your burner looks to be like the one Iíve seen on the Grout
The only burners Iíve used 6Ft 6 inch vaporizers on are the 20 HP boilers I cut a 20 footer and get three vaporizers. Iíve never seen one that long on the small 14 inch and 18 inch burner.
On my EX I run a single fuel system Gasoline, I come off the main fuel valve and split the line one to the main vaporizer valve and one through a Watts pressure reducing valve to the Pilot valve. Pilot pressure is 25 PSI the vaporizerís are only 18 inches long. Two for the main burner, one each side, one on top for the Pilot.
All three have 3/16 S.S. cable in the tube. I have not had any carbon problems.
Rolly

Re: Steel tube for burner vaporising coil
Posted by: Nick Howell (2.29.111.---)
Date: October 10, 2012 01:37PM

Rolly, what do you mean by your "main vapourizer valve"? Do you mean teh main burner jet valve.

I could reduce the length of the vaporizing tube, as you suggest, and it may well come to that soon.I suppose because I am following what I know or understand is Toledo's original design--mainly from photos or drawings from The Horseless Age magazine--and I have copied their length of vapourising tube but am using a new pilot light that I have cast from an original, Iam assuming that I have not made some part to their design, like the fuel supply and pilot light needles. And so it won't work properly. Mind you our "kerosene" over here is probley not the same spec as kerosene was in 1902. You don't happen to have any specifications do you?

And do you know why it so many perople use unleaded petrol, some with diesel mixed in at 25% and some 50% when petrol is so volatile?

Here are two photos of the new pilot light. Fuel comes across and through the vapourising tube down from the top of teh casting and exits on the other side to go to the main burner jet which is controlled by the steam automatic. So pilot is a bleed off the main vapourising tube realy.

Regards

Nick



Attachments: new pilot 2 .jpg (83kB)   new pilot 1 .jpg (79kB)  
Re: Steel tube for burner vaporising coil
Posted by: Rolly (---.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
Date: October 10, 2012 02:13PM

Nick
I am attaching a drawing of my fuel system. The original did not use a pressure reducing regulator (valve). I kept having pilot problems and others suggested the pressure reducing regulator, great advice, no problems since. Itís in red on the drawing.
Iím sorry I canít be of more help; Iíve never worked on the Toledo. I happened to run across some photos of your car in a back issue of THE STEAM CAR this morning.
Good luck with it.
Rolly

Attachments: Fuel System.jpg (63kB)  
Re: Steel tube for burner vaporising coil
Posted by: Nick Howell (2.29.111.---)
Date: October 10, 2012 02:37PM

Nice one Rolly! I see what you mean now. I'll have a think about re-plumbing
(all to be competed in the next two and half weeks!)

So far I am quite enjoying the methodical working through of improvements with steam cars.

I see that there were some photos of the Toledo in the latest Steam Car Club mag as well--just out.

Nick

Re: Steel tube for burner vaporising coil
Posted by: Mike L Clark (---.bb.sky.com)
Date: October 10, 2012 05:37PM

Nick Howell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> And do you know why it so many people use
> unleaded petrol, some with diesel mixed in at 25%
> and some 50% when petrol is so volatile?

The theory is that, since most hydrocarbon fuels have a similar energy content per unit weight (about 19,000 BTu per lb) but are sold by volume, you get the best deal by buying the most dense fuel - diesel. However you can't easily, cleanly burn straight diesel in a vapourising burner so have to mix it with petrol to get a product which behaves more or less like the kerosene for which the later Stanley burners were designed. In practice kerosene, like central heating oil in the UK, is a most inconsistant product as it is intended for use in things which are in theory very tolerant of any old fuel. For a Stanley vapourising burner it seems to be best to mix petrol and diesel, fiddling with the ratio to suit the particular burner as both petrol and diesel have to meet a close specification to work in petrol and diesel engines and are therefore of consistent quality. If we could find an assured source of decent kerosene that would be the best answer.

There is a school of thought which says that the mixture is less inflammable and therefore safer that petrol alone - I very much doubt this as the vapour given off still contains the highly inflammable short chain hydrocarbons while in contrast these are not present in the vapour over diesel or kerosene.

I do wonder how we shall get on when higher levels of ethanol are put into petrol - we see acid corrosion of our copper tanks or strange bacterial growth problems as have been seen with biodiesel. At the moment Super Unleaded petrol in the UK has no ethanol so perhaps that is the best option. However it is a curious fact that, though ethanol in petrol is being blamed for all sorts of things, Cleveland Discol which contained 15% ethanol in petrol was sold between 1930 and 1960 and did not dissolve fuel tanks then so why should it now?

Your new pilot looks a superb job Nick.

Mike






Edited 1 times. Last edit at 10/11/12 08:45AM by Mike L Clark.

Re: Steel tube for burner vaporising coil
Posted by: Nick Howell (2.29.110.---)
Date: October 10, 2012 06:00PM

Thanks Mike and funny that you should mention purity and consistency of fuels because I haven't been too happy with what appeared to be differences in performance between two batches of kerosene from two suppliers that I have been using. C1 kerosene, which is jet fuel, should be consistent pretty hard to buy and its nearest equivalent, paraffin, also varies and is as expensive as petrol. Hexane even more.

I drained the fuel tanks of kerosene tonight for tomorrow's tests--the vaporising tube/coil, with pilot light attached is bolted to an anvil in the garage door entrance with an extended fuel line going back to the car's fuel tanks inside.

Tomorrow I will start with straight unleaded and then try 75/25 and then 50/50 unleaded and diesel. At least fuel pressure will be consistent with use of the car, 30 psi though airflow around the venturi will be slightly different.

The new pilot light casting that I'm using --made four at the time--has certainly acquired a patina now!

Regards

Nick

Re: Steel tube for burner vaporising coil
Posted by: Nick Howell (2.31.93.---)
Date: January 17, 2013 12:53PM

I should add a postscript to my problem with "carbonisation" in the vapourising tube as I solved the problem in the end.

What was clogging up the tube after an hour or two of running was the re-solidification of dissolved fuel cell foam! In a mistaken safety idea, years ago when I was reconditioning the two copper fuel tanks of the Toledo I had filled them with some racing car fuel cell foam that I had left over from my Datsun 240Z works race car.
25 year old fuel cell foam may look fine but ethanol, now in our petrol, slowly dissolves it and what was happening in my fuel system was that the dissolved mixture was passing nicely through the very fine in-line filter that I had installed but when it reached the heat of the vapourising tube it was gradually solidifying. Eventually the vapourisor would block up completly and even using the oxy-acetelene torch decarbonisation method was insufficient to shift it.

I have only run the car a couple of times since clearing all of the foam from teh system and all seems fine. The real test will be when the weather improves and I canm once more steam off up the road. Bob Dyke, who lives a couple of miles away, has suggested that we have a 1902 White and Toledo day out. Good idea.

Re: Steel tube for burner vaporising coil
Posted by: Mike L Clark (---.bb.sky.com)
Date: January 17, 2013 03:48PM

Well diagnosed Nick - who would have guessed that would happen.

Mike

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