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Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: (---.range86-159.btcentralplus.com)
Date: August 14, 2013 05:16AM

Hello Mike,
Francois has sold his Salmson last winter but I believe is still in contact with the new owner and recently went to a Salmson rally with him. Unfortunately, Francois is feeling his age and is selling his White also. The White is now able to tour but whoever buys it will probably want to re-body it with an original type body and fit a proper fuel tank which is half made already by Peter Stevenson –it needs the fittings.
The bearings on Billy are quite a problem but the engine has been getting much better with use and my adjustments. The problem is the all-ball-bearing crank with its almost crazed bearing way surfaces. I wonder if it could be metal sprayed or electrolysed like the hard chrome process and then reground. I still have the engine on the bench ready to be stripped but as yet I have not had time to do this as I am trying to sort out Lucy (my 1908 White) ready for Mike Mutter’s “Three Counties Tour” starting on Sunday.
Lucy has the new generator in now which I made with Billy’s last year. The car now steams very fast and would be fine if only the steam temperature would come up to 750deg F. I have checked the usual things such as blocked jets, a blocked vaporiser, the thermostat valve and have the flowmotor on the bench at present but it tests almost spot on. The adjustment here is a tapered groove filled with soft solder beside the good fitting piston. This lets a set amount of water through to the steam generator with a set amount of fire. Scrape a little solder out and more water goes through. The 20hp cars pass one American gallon of water in 1minute 40 seconds when the needle has gone 15/16 inch down, the 30hp cars pass the same amount of water in 1min 20 seconds. One has to connect a hose onto the flowmotor to imitate the car’s water pumps and adjust the flow until the needle has gone down 15/16inch. It all sounds difficult but I keep the kit ready for testing and it is fairly simple. I think that I may have screwed the fuel needle in a little too far and am going to check on that too. Once set, hopefully all will be well and it should not need adjustment for a long time.
Bob

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: (---.range86-152.btcentralplus.com)
Date: September 5, 2013 04:14AM

5.9. 2013
We have returned from a successful and very enjoyable tour based at Frensham Ponds Hotel in Surrey. My 1908 White Lucy steamed well and within three days I had decent control of the steam temperature and pressure. I had intermittent howling at first and this was a large part of my problem. The main jet was too large. I had ordered new drills for the three 0.054 inch holes. Unfortunately and foolishly, I had cleaned out all my jets to this size. My brother had problems with his 1910 White on the third day and I borrowed his main jet which I made a couple of years ago. This did not howl and the car steamed much better, especially with the fuel tank pressure nearer 55psi than 50psi. When back home I checked the new drills for size. They measured 0.05425nch on my electronic micrometer and the old broken cleaning drill was 0.0524inch so I had enlarged the three holes rather than cleaning them. His is very critical on a White. I will now have to make a new little batch of nozzles!

I have started stripping down Whistling Billy's engine H4. Oh dear!
The low pressure cylinder is cracked from top to bottom in one place. This was an extension of a cack detected and welded when they were relined. It probably again results from the 1908 accident that the engine was damaged in. I will see if this is repairable perhaps with a strengthening band around the cylinder centre. If not, I do have a spare one on my spare engine H 383 but I would like to build up that engine too. I also have a spare earlier two slide valve block but that is not suitable for Billy running at high pressure. If anyone out there knows of a 1907 (No H ??) or 1908 (No L??) White 20hp engine or block, I would be very interested in it!
The crank-shaft has also rotated 90 degrees on the front taper shearing the 3/8 inch pin. The main bearings so far seem to be reasonable and if anything improving with use! However, I have yet to take them all off but hope to do so today. I also found one of he nuts had come off the water pump eccentric. I had refitted it as it was done by an engineering friend the wrong way using Locktight. The nut had caught the sump and put a crack in it. Thesewill in future all be pinned as Whites did them!

My brother John has been down here for a couple of days using my ramps while we worked on his 1910 Model "00" White's steam generator. It had collapsed down onto the burner as the lower coils had not been made and fitted correctly by the previous owner. This is not an easy job that must be right as four ends of the lower coil which is a crossed one rather than a true coil sit on the base casing casting. We welded small plates in so that the present coil will sit on them and no longer fall on the burner. Eventually we will remake the bottom coil correctly but that will need the whole generator removing, a job for the winter.
We were then also able to properly fit the vaporizer which is a casting on the Whites where the fuel passes six times over the pilot light.
While we had it out, we also cleaned the main burner slots. This burner is a modified one with a flat top which was laser cut. It is much cheaper to make than the original White one with its concentric slotted humps and seems to work quite well but perhaps not quite as well as the original. It will be interesting to see how good it is now having cleaned all the slots with a 0.025inch slitting saw and got the coil sitting correctly. I think that these slots could have been made larger, perhaps cut to 0.032inch without it blowing back. This should give much more sustained fire. It is the first time that we have had this car on my ramps to sort the steam generator and burner since John purchased it.
Bob




Edited 2 times. Last edit at 09/07/13 04:05AM by steamcarbob.

Attachments: H4 Cracked block small.jpg (131kB)  
Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: (---.wavecable.com)
Date: September 5, 2013 10:49PM

Here in the United States, we have professional cast iron welders that restore our blown Stanley steam car cylinders so well that afterwards, one cannot tell that they have ever been broken. Certainly in the UK there are cast iron welders that can restore your White's cracked engine cylinder. After preparation, it takes about a day to bring the cast iron cylinder up to temperature. It is then gas welded. Then it takes over a day for the cylinder to cool properly. SSsssteamer

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: (---.range86-152.btcentralplus.com)
Date: September 7, 2013 04:48AM

7.9.13
The block has already been sent to a specialist cast iron welder in the Midlands of England hopefully for repair and a band putting around the cylinders. I will be telephoning him again on Monday to sort out the details when he has had a chance to examine it.
I hope to be sorting the twisted crank next Wednesday with Nigel Tamblin who made the complex jig for taking the crankshaft apart and pressing it together with 70tons.
Bob

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: (---.range81-129.btcentralplus.com)
Date: September 19, 2013 06:05AM

19.9.2013

The cylinder block is away hopefully being repaired. Cast Iron Welding Services cannot guarantee a good result but intend to weld the liner into the cracked cylinder and then I will have to get it bored out until round and clean, possibly with another liner in it.

The crankshaft is now in bits. I have made the 3/4inch taper pin for the low pressure big end which goes through the end of the big end holding a stub from each side which has the centre of the ball bearing outside also holding it together. It all has to clamp very accurately with a 70 ton press. These taper pins taper by 0.27 inches per foot. Once having got my old Smart & Brown lathe set up producing the correct taper, I made 4 of them so I have spares if I do this again and for the spare engine H383 crankshaft.
I found some of the 3/8 inch tapered pins that hold the other parts of the crank together on the internet. These pins hold together tapers which again need a 70 to press and must be lined up correctly before the final pressing. Two out of the three of these had slipped around by almost 90degrees sheering the 3/8 pins.

On putting the part of the LP big end crank together with one of my large tapered pins, I set it up in the lathe between centres. It is bent, running out by about 0.032inch. I am today going to attempt to straighten this with some heat! Hopefully the metal will have a memory and get back to near the correct place.

My next problem comes with getting new ball bearings and preparing them for assembly. Most of them are metric sizes (as White used) being 15mm,14.5mm, 13mm, 1/2inch and 5/16 inch. The bearing channels had to be polished out with fine emery before as they were quite a mess when found. This gives some play in the bearings but the running over the last year has improved them a lot. I have hoped to be able to increase the size of balls minimally but there seems no room between the balls to take another 0.001 inch each so I have to be satisfied with just new balls at present. I will see what can be done with my spare engine crankshaft but the balls are very rusty in that and I have yet to get the rods off it and look at the ways.

Anyway, there looks like lots of fun in the machine shop over the next week or two! I have my doubts about making Prescott Hill Climb in just over two weeks as I will be held up on the block machining!
Good advice and suggestions are always welcome especially if you have tried this game before or is it just me that twists up old engines?
Bob



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 09/19/13 06:18AM by steamcarbob.

Attachments: Crank aprt (s).jpg (137kB)   H4 apart.jpg (109kB)   LP Crank in lathe bent 0.030inch.jpg (88kB)  
Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: (---.range81-129.btcentralplus.com)
Date: September 20, 2013 04:44AM

20.9.2013
Well, Well! I had a good day yesterday. That bent crank had a good memory and I managed to finish by reducing the over 30 thousands of an inch eccentricity (each way) to within a one thousand of an inch on the bearing surface beside the crank when it was between centres. It took two heating’s to red heat and gradual cooling. The first I over did it and it was 80 thou the wrong way! The next, with a bit of by eye adjustment, left it ten thou out but at 90degrees to the first bend. I then just tweaked the large weights in the vice twice bringing it to two thou eccentric and then spot on. Now I have to tighten the tapered pin where it is, without further movement, and recheck it.
I then turned to the rear bearing which has a modified split inner and outer ring and the inner one had opened. I could not shift the Allen screws that held it so I just pressed it back into position and filled the gap with plastic steel. That should stop it shifting again.
The next job is to check the bearings. I am awaiting the new balls. After that I have to line up and pin the tapers on the crank. I also have a little aluminium repair to do on the crankcase where the nut came off the pump crank end and caught against the valve eccentric big-end cracking the case.
I will also have a good look at the block on my spare engine H383 to see If I can spot any problems and try to skim the poor surfaces. I might have to use this block when I rebuild engine H4 as it could be some time before I get it's own one back.
Bob

Attachments: Crankshaft straightened(S).jpg (89kB)   Crack in crank-case(s).jpg (92kB)  
Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Mike L Clark (---.bb.sky.com)
Date: September 21, 2013 05:01AM

Hard work there Bob.

As one more accustomed to IC crankshafts my first thought on looking at the White crank is that it is very skinny for the work it has to do and that there are lots of bits joined together which makes it difficult keeping it all true.

Mike

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: (---.range81-129.btcentralplus.com)
Date: September 21, 2013 05:56AM


21.9.2013
You are quite right Mike, it is really too light for the job but that is what it was and I am as yet reluctant to change it. I am looking at the possibility of using a torsion damping device as a removable prop-shaft to save my engines. White found the engine was less of a problem than the flexible coupling on the rear of the prop-shaft - three were twisted off in one race meeting by I believe Walter White but it could have been Rolland –one of the White brothers borrowing the car for the weekend for some racing fun!
Yesterday I worked on the rear main bearing. It had been fitted with oversized balls-14mm instead of 13.5mm which did not really fit the grooves. I have been using the 13.5 mm bearings removed from other bearings to resize this bearing which has both rings split. I had already clamped in the centre rings on the shaft to the correct place so they sat well. I have now been gradually skimming down the outside split race to take out the wear. This may seem a crude way of doing things but it should be very much better than it was. I have got the play down so far from 40 thou to 12 thou and am reluctant to go much further until I have the new balls available. The bearing is certainly already spinning much smoother than it was.
The play is there because of the original damage from rust and age to these. They were “polished out” on the first rebuild by a friend. I may have to do similar with the spare engine if I am unable to find any replacements as before.
Bob

Attachments: H4 rear bearing refit(s).jpg (80kB)   H383 rusty rear bearing(s).jpg (72kB)  
Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Mike L Clark (---.bb.sky.com)
Date: September 21, 2013 03:55PM

Perhaps you need a spring drive as seen on "The Automobile magazine's" Trojan - radial springs connecting the flywheel rin to the driven shaft!

Attachments: Trojan spring drive.jpg (92kB)  
Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: (---.range81-129.btcentralplus.com)
Date: September 22, 2013 04:39AM

Hi Mike,
I had a 1931 chain drive Trojan as a student for a very short while. I think that it cost me a fiver from a local moorland farm. It was a fabric saloon with "Pandora's Box" in the back rather than under the floor. It struggled on the hills and to get around wet bends where the hedge was useful on the narrow lanes to get it around as there was so much weight behind the back axle and almost none on the front. It left a smoke-screen as it went along and I took three goes before failing to get it up our local hill. I then drove to the next bridge down the river and managed on the third time to get it up that lesser hill and back to my parents house! I swapped it for a Ford Special which was a well built car! I never got around to giving it the proper service which it badly needed. A couple of concrete blocks in the front helped the steering but not getting up the hills.

I think that the torsion dampers that I am looking at are modern versions of this spring loaded flywheel device! It is a rubber or neoprene device.
Bob

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