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Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Steamcarbob (---.range86-183.btcentralplus.com)
Date: January 23, 2015 07:32AM

23.01.2015
Yesterday I spent the day with Nigel Tamblin who is a fine old fashioned engineer. His usual job is keeping a small gauge commercial railway system running, sorting and servicing the engines etc.
Nigel made and designed the “70 ton” press for taking apart and assembling my White crank-shafts which are in five parts with tapers and tapered pins. Either job is a two man job and a full days work.

Our task was to re-assemble Whistling Billy’s spare engine H 383 crankshaft. There are four main bearings. Remember that this engine had been stored probably for 50 odd of it's 108 years in damp conditions and only partly protected by some oil. The rear two mains had been reground by HB Bearings where the actual rear part of the shaft is the center of the bearing and new outside rings and cages made. HB Bearings also did similar work on the big ends where the outside is ground into the con-rod. For the front two bearings I had managed to find modern equivalents to fit and made good fitting round spacers on the outside which are about 1/8 inch thick. The valve straps and water pump rod again are part of the bearings and I have just polished and fitted slightly larger balls- the next metric size above the original 5/16th inch balls (just over 1 thou larger).

Assembly of the 1907 crank-shaft.
1) First we put the rear big end section of the crank-shaft together. This is held with the central casing of the big end bearing which is a press fit but we put it between centers and got it as true as possible in the opposite plane to the weights and bearing. We then pressed the large tapered pin through the center, cut and riveted it over. Next we put it into the centers again and found that it was true where we had set it, but 18 thou out in the other plane with the weights being too close together. This often is the result when one has a nasty twisted crank or such. We jacked the two weights apart with a trimmed down M12 bolt with a nut fitted using this as a jack. Opening it to where it is true, giving it an extra turn, releasing and re-testing it. It was about 5 thou better. We Repeated the process with a bit more and we were within 2 thou – about as true as I we are likely to get it!
2) We then pressed on the front and second main bearings onto their beds which were very tight fits. I had made 1/8 inch distance plates as the modern bearing centers were that much shorter. We now had the parts assembled for putting it all together.
3) Next we mounted the bottom end of the large puller in the vice and onto it, on a pin, fitted the front section of the crank-shaft. The front end of the valve gear bearings was offered onto this and very carefully lined up before being pressed on and then taper pinned. I had made extra-long tapered pins going both larger and smaller which we found that we needed as the box of standard ones that I had purchased were too loose in some of the holes and even too tight in one! On this front taper we felt that there was not the distance to press it on to full tightness so we used Loctite 138 which we would rather not use. One must make this decision before pressing as it is not easy to separate again and takes different parts of the press!
4) The rear big end section was added, where we had already assembled the two parts.The tapers were cleaned and lined up with the valve section. We had a block in between the weights and our jacking bolt tight in the center to stop that part of the crank being bent again. This was a good snug fit and was pressed together and the tapered pin fitted without Loctite.
5) The rear main was now pressed onto the end of the rear big end, with all the crank now in our press. The top bar of the press has two holes in it to fit two of the bolts for the fly-wheel which have to be fitted in the plate before the rear mains are assembled. This had been done by HB Bearings and I had the rear assembly ready for fitting. Unfortunately we again had to use Loctite 138 although we may have got away without it as although it had very little distance to press on it was very tight.
6) We now carefully trimmed off and riveted over the tapered pins.
7) We put the crank-shaft into its case and it spins easily and seems fine although the bearing were not at that stage tightened. A good days work!
Bob




Edited 2 times. Last edit at 01/24/15 03:49AM by Steamcarbob.

Attachments: Crank-shaft reassembly-Front to valve section.jpg (194kB)   valve gear to rearbig end assembly.jpg (210kB)   Crank-shaft reassembled.jpg (189kB)  
Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Mike L Clark (---.range86-133.btcentralplus.com)
Date: January 25, 2015 05:22PM

Bob - inch size taper pins have a 1 in 48 taper but metric are 1 in 50. Not a lot of people know that.

My French Salmson's propshaft is a 30mm diameter seamless tube which is attached to the pinion shaft at one end and a square shaft connection to the U/J at the other. The original arrangment involved 4 parallel 5mm thick rivets at each end with the internal fitting soft soldered in place. I use taper pins and substitute high strength Loctite for the solder. It works perfctly and is much easier to assemble. Dismantling needs the taper pins to be drilled out and some heat to shift the Loctite - a bit fiddly but compared with your work reported here it's a doddle!

Mike

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Steamcarbob (---.range86-183.btcentralplus.com)
Date: January 26, 2015 06:50AM

26.01.2015
Hello Mike,
I try to do things as they were by the White Company but compromises are often required.
I have a very good c1960 Smart and Brown lathe which I purchased in the 1980s at an auction at Dunkerswell Aerodrome near Honiton where they sell a lot of government surplus. There were three similar lathes there from Portland which had all similar parts put on one of the lathes. The auctioneer was happy for me to sort them out and the three lathes then had most of their correct fittings. The one that I bought had a six jaw Churchill chuck and a 4 jaw, taper turning, two cross-slides (one with a quick change tool–post) and a full set of collets with a great quick-change system as well as micrometer stops and a metric main bed micrometer. It is a joy to use and can run at high speed for a fine finish. I had my father’s old Colchester Master and that does my large and heavier work, also its chucks are the same fitting which is very handy.
The tapers on the pins came out at just over 1/8th inch in the foot. It was a bit of guess work and checking diameters but once I got one it was easy to run off a few. The larger pin in the HP big-and was almost the same taper although I did a bit of fiddling to get it right. I had already made three spares for the H4 engine that is in Billy but they were slightly too large for this engine. It now has spares too.
I have almost got the valve straps mounted on their bearings. This was reasonably simple to do with just polishing the surfaces and putting in the next size of ball.
I am then on to the parts where the valves screw into (name? valve seat?) which are quite worn or rather corroded from wet storage. If these are worn, then the packing will not stay in the valve packing gland. The bushes that they run in are bronze and hardly worn.
I am first going to see if I can skim the surface off them and press fit an old part of a hard–chromed piston rod outside over the shank so that they will be back to half inch and hard chromed. This may not be practical but I have done the same thing with pump rods to good effect in the past. I try to get the outside about 40thou/inch thick. The hard chrome should be about 2 thou. If this turns out not to be practical, I shall have to turn new ones and mill the heads probably using EN24T. That will be the difficult part to get right.
Another job that needs doing before the crank goes in is the piston-like cross-heads, one of which is very corroded but the other is reasonable. I replaced these on my 1908 White and was advised by an engineering professor to use Meonite. It was fine until one day on a tour when it gave away and broke the cylinder head. Apparently Meonite is fine under compression but does not take stretching which of course a double acting compound engine does especially on the LP side when it is simpled.
Bob

Attachments: H383 The valve straps being fitted.jpg (197kB)   Smart & Brown lathe with taper turning the back.jpg (111kB)   S &B taper turning scales.jpg (178kB)  
Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Steamcarbob (---.range86-181.btcentralplus.com)
Date: February 1, 2015 04:50AM

1.2.2015
I ended up making those two parts that I could not name into which the steam valves screw from EN24T stock bar. They are named in the White Parts List as “slide valve stem bearings”.
I first machined the stem, drilled the hole and threaded the end for the valve at 5/16 X 30tpi. Then I milled the end into the rectangle before drilling the pin hole and then slowly milling out the central slot in steps with the help of drilling a couple of holes first to make it easier for the mill in the hard steel. Anyway all went well but they took me two days. My mill is an old but functional Bridgeport.
I can next move on to sorting out the cross-heads, one of which was very rusty from the engines circa 50 years in wet storage and I do not want one to let go with the extra steam pressure that I am using. I will probably end up machining new ones possibly from EN16T but they will need to be made as light as possible yet maintaining the strength. Once these are done the crank-shaft can go into its casing.
Bob




Edited 2 times. Last edit at 02/01/15 05:52AM by Steamcarbob.

Attachments: Slide valve stem bearings.jpg (178kB)  
Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Mike L Clark (---.range86-133.btcentralplus.com)
Date: February 1, 2015 05:52AM

Bob - on similar jobs I have found that the fork end slot is fairly easy to do with a circular slitting saw in an arbor held in the chuck of the milling machine. If you hold the work in a dividing head you can (provided the dividing head is truly conentric) start with a narrow slot and work outwards to the required width, turning the work through 180 deg for each cut and raising the table to increase the width of the slot. Best to use a thickish slitting saw and of course the depth of slot endwise is limited by the free radial clearance on the slitting saw.

Mike

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Steamcarbob (---.range86-181.btcentralplus.com)
Date: February 1, 2015 06:01AM

Hello Mike,
Yes, I considered doing it that way even to the extent of having them ready to set up. I ended up using an end mill and the side of it for finishing but I did need a little finish by hand file as I deliberately left them tight so that I could still use the minimally worn parts that fit in them. I do use the slitting saws but I could see problems with the hard steel and went for the simple way first. I did the milling on one set-up in a lovely old dividing head that I purchased at Beaulieu some years ago -it is probably contemporary with the car but very functional.
Bob



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 02/01/15 06:03AM by Steamcarbob.

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Steamcarbob (---.range86-181.btcentralplus.com)
Date: February 5, 2015 05:01AM

5.2.2015
Billy’s spare engine H 383 now has the crank-shaft fitted into the crank-case and it turns over easily! As you will see from the picture, I use the old parts where I can. I looked carefully at the cross-heads and trimmed them down slightly. They were quite a good fit still although a little pitted, so I re-used them. The hard machined pins through them needed considerable “polishing” before they would fit at all. It was as if they had expanded on taking apart! I have been very lucky in how much of this engine I can use as it had been poorly stored in the wet but it was still oily!
I will have to run it in carefully and initially I will probably use hydraulic oil and change it quickly as a “flush out”. Many of the bearings were fitted with grease and others just cleaned and lightly oiled. I want the thin oil everywhere and may even keep using it, as so often the car hardly has time to warm up properly before a sprint or hill climb. I have been using Mobil W 600 as recommended by Whites in their original literature.
After putting on the sump and side plate I will need to sort the block, pump shaft, piston rods and valve rods. The last three of these I will completely remake and have them hard-chromed and ground. The block has been welded where the cylinders were cracked, this is actually the block off engine H4 which was damaged originally in an accident in 1908 and then by me last year in France. H 383's block is on H 4 in Billy at present.
I am missing the female square drive that goes in the flywheel into which the prop-shaft square fits. For this I will probably have to take out Billy’s engine to copy that one. I have been unable to find one and it had been robbed off H 383. My intention is to have a complete spare engine ready to slip into the car in case of problems which are likely to occur when you are using twice the usual steam pressure and pushing the limits of the car.
I am attaching a picture of the crank in its case and also one of my dividing head referred to in my last ramblings. There are some marks on it but I do not know who made it and it is missing the dividing plates and fittings off the back which I am sure I could sort if needed sometime. It is calibrated in degrees and seconds and is very usable as it is.
Bob

Attachments: Crank in crank-case.jpg (227kB)   Dividing head.jpg (218kB)   Dividing head markings.jpg (197kB)  
Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Steamcarbob (---.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
Date: February 9, 2015 07:24AM

8.02.2015
I am now back working on the 1903 White Model “C”. There is still an issue of not enough steam and fire for the hills or using too much for the system to manage.
I have been through the clack valves again and got rid of all the angles on the seats. I just set each clack in the milling machine and took one millimeter off each seat which left a good flat surface on the top. Then I did the usual system of putting in a new steel ball and giving it a sharp blow with a hammer via a brass tube. Then it was just a question of resetting the lift to just between 28 and 32 thou with the bronze ball in them. These are all clacking away happily. One hears them coming in and out and all seems well with them.
At the same time, while I had the top water pump off the car, I checked the position of the pump lever pin. It was in the mid position of three, so I put it in the one nearest the pump which gives a slightly longer stroke. This was advised if you live in a hilly district which I do and the car seems to need all the water that it can get. For this job I had to take the sump off and I checked the capacity of it at the same time, it was full of oil and holds just three pints. This was almost like grease with the present cold spell and temperatures just above freezing. Perhaps I need thinner oil in the winter! One is advised in the manual to add a pint every 100 miles, that seems to end up on the floor but Whites did win prizes for keeping the dust down!
Having done this work I steamed again. It is really no better. My son Michael was here with his family and he towed me back up my drive. Given time I could have made it but that was easier.
Looking at the fire, it now seems to look good with a good strong blue flame.
So is the problem in the steam generator? I wondered if this was stainless steel to look at it, but on looking in Paul’s file it clearly states on its plans that the generator is to be made of carbon steel. The thermostat case has been finned which I am sure is a mistake. By 1905 it was taken out of the fire-box to avoid the case being over heated. This hopefully is not too much of an issue. On ticking over the car maintains the correct 750 deg F and 300 to 330 psi quite happily.
The next thing that I must re-visit is the engine. It does seem to be using much too much steam when sitting ticking over and does not slip easily from reverse to forwards without using the simpling pedal to restart. This could indicate an internal steam leak.
I will re-visit the simpling valves which are one of the common problems on Whites, especially any leak from the small steam inlet valve on the top of the block. I did not make a new one of these but reground in the old one. I will make sure that the springs to keep them closed are strong enough and that the parts are free moving.
After this I might have to start looking into more detail in the main valves. I am fairly certain that they are fine as I took a considerable time on their preparation.
The one problem that I am hoping is not the case is that this old block has a fatal crack in it. I found it on my shelf and do not remember from whence it came but the one that was on the car had a severely damaged HP valve seat. I could see no problems with this block. Although I have never seen it, apparently one can have a poor casting with a crack on the inside of the complex casting. How does one diagnose that?
Regards Bob

Attachments: Left side of 1903 White engine.jpg (229kB)   Right side of 1903 White engine.jpg (236kB)   The simpling valves.jpg (158kB)  
Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Old timer (86.112.219.---)
Date: February 9, 2015 10:33AM

Hi Robert,
How about having the block x-rayed?
Best Wishes
George

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Steamcarbob (---.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
Date: February 9, 2015 11:13AM

Hello George,
A good idea if it was not that the block is on the engine which is still in the car and me struggling to get it going better.
Do you know who does this type of X-ray work on metal?
The next question is would a crack on an inside metal sheet show up with the surrounding metal obstructing it?
You are quite right and I may have to go that way if I am finally satisfied that the other problems are all solved. This car is supposed to be taking us touring in Germany at the end of April/early May, so time is getting short.
Regards Bob

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