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Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Rog White (---.range86-133.btcentralplus.com)
Date: February 17, 2015 06:47AM

Hi Bob
I forgot leaks.
Too much lead on the HP will prevent starting, in full gear of course.
Notched up it's another way of generating a very short cut-off with a decent valve opening. Not that you need that on a compound.
If you make a new valve make it with so much lap that it doesn't open at all.
If you can scratch some port marks, it helps. (Depends on engine layout).
One thou can make a difference when you are working the lap away, particularly on the LP valve. Top and bottom won't be the same either - (due to Roger Williams' problem, (or Whitworth effect) of enequal travel of valve or piston from the 90 deg. crank position). I'm not sure how you make sure that the cylinders are generating equal work without an indicator. Intermediate receiver pressure is probably a simple guide.
Sorry to go on, but this seems to be the crux of multi-stage engines.
I cheated and haven't needed a simpling/receiver charging valve(s) - I couldn't devise a way of fitting valve piston rings which I'm told give trouble. So that surely gives a good cataract of leaks at low revs.
Best of luck with it.
Rog W

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Rog White (---.range86-133.btcentralplus.com)
Date: February 17, 2015 07:07AM

yet another



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 02/17/15 07:11AM by Rog White.

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Rog White (---.range86-133.btcentralplus.com)
Date: February 17, 2015 07:08AM

Another double



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 02/17/15 07:10AM by Rog White.

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Rog White (---.range86-133.btcentralplus.com)
Date: February 17, 2015 07:10AM

Double post

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Steamcarbob (---.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
Date: February 18, 2015 04:49AM

Hello Rog,
Whites started in 1900 with two HP cylinders and slide valves using an engine like those of the Locomobile or Mason regulator.
The 1903 White is compound and all slide valve with the HP valve smaller than the LP valve. With that set up and no drain cocks there seems no way of testing the system on the bench except by observing where the steam/air exhausts at what part of the stroke. This is easier done in the car gently rolling it along with compressed air instead of steam.
The other thing that makes it easier to experiment in the car is the exact position of the cut-off. The lever is obviously disconnected when the engine is on the bench and as yet I have not made a jig to temporarily replace it. I need to do more running and work out just where on the cut off I have most power and where I tend to loose/use too much steam.

Whites first used a piston valve with Whistling Billy on the HP side in 1905 and this went into the production Whites Model "H"(20hp) and "G"(30hp) in 1907 (Billy's present engine H4 is in fact early 1906 as it was in the Motor Show in England in a car bodied by Cann & Co in October 1906 showing off the 1907 Model "H"). Production of course was considerably ahead of sales.
The 1907 and 1908 cars still kept the flat valve for the LP cylinder.
In 1909 the engine was completely redesigned with Joy valve gear and two piston valves still without rings for the Models "O" and "M".
It seems that some of the 1910 (Models "OO" and "MM") engines had rings on the piston valves but I am not sure how much advantage that was.

The steam pressure on the 1905 Whites is usually at 370(by-pass setting) to 400psi. Billy ran then at 800 psi. By 1909 the standard cars were running at 600 psi but the steam pressure on Billy was then increased to 1200 psi as these later engines have few moving parts and are almost bullet-proof.
Bob



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 02/19/15 05:07AM by Steamcarbob.

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Steamcarbob (---.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
Date: March 3, 2015 05:14AM

3.03.2015
It is now hailing outside but I have had an interesting week steaming the 1903 White in the few dry hours that we have had.
The repair of the water pump lever seems to be fine. I have posh large round rear view mirrors mounted on brackets on the dash. I have yet to get the brackets nickel plated. The brakes are now also much better with some adjustment.

I planned to replace the HP valve with one that I have made about 100 thou wider on each outside. I stripped the engine insulation off and opened the valve chest. Next I spent a long time very carefully looking at the valve timing.
When I put the engine together on the bench I carefully adjusted the valve openings equal when open on each side with the Stephenson’s link lever locked in near full open position.
Now that I had the engine in the car I could notch it up on the Stephenson’s link motion. It does seem very odd on this car that when the valves are opening a certain distance equally, the starting of the opening is not equal. It does seem to open both valves a long way before top dead centre.
I wondered if the crank was twisted but it seems OK. I know that the lower end of the engine was extensively rebuilt and the bearings are excellent. A brief inspection of the valve straps shows them to seem original so hopefully that is correct.
I readjusted the valves to open before TDC equally (now the full open is not equal), the LP valve especially was a long way out. I opted at this stage not to fit my wider HP valve. After this the engine does run much more smoothly especially on the road on the third notch. The simpling valves seem to be working better too.

I have reduced the main jet size from 78thou to 72 thou and it still howls so I need to go smaller still. I added one gallon of diesel to the petrol and the pilot light seems to cope with that but of course it takes longer to warm up and one needs to open the main fuel in gradual steps. It certainly helps the hill climbing.
I have done several circuits around the Sancreed Beacon and managed to get home each time. The car is climbing moderate hills and is fine on level ground. It will build steam on mild slopes but too slowly and still loses temperature very easily on steeper hills. On the last trip I did two circuits of the Beacon and then went off towards St. Just. Almost at the same place that the pump shaft broke last week, the bronze top water pump supplying the steam generator fractured off just above the mounting nut. I managed to hand pump water in to get us home.
There is still clearly a problem here. I wondered if I have the clacks slightly too tight. I will certainly go through them again and at the same time have a good look at the valve gear in the crankcase.
This is not the first old bronze water pump that I have fractured. The old bronze tends to be very crystalline. I did this on my 1908 White while on a tour Kent some years ago. That car had no previous water pump problems and was fine after repair.
I hope to add a picture of this top water pump broken with an old one that is broken further down the packing gland which was from one of my 1907 engines and broken and repaired in the early days.
To get the pump off, it is much easier to take the engine out which only takes an hour. I will strip the engine back to the crankcase and block and check the pistons and rings and all the valves and the straps to try to determine why I am still using steam too fast.
This is proving a very difficult car to sort. I want it to be better than the 1902 White on hill climbing. It certainly is not so as yet and I am only testing it with myself and an extra 20 litres of water and a large tool box as ballast in case I run out as I am aware that the car is still using too much water. It should take four of us up good hills without problems. It is quite fast on the level but I still have to be very careful not to use too much steam.

Yesterday I again took the engine out. The water pump is a recently made one and it has fractured where I have never seen it broken before, through the bronze collar just above the mounting thread but the packing gland goes too far into this part. Unfortunately this casting has a very small shoulder and the part that has fracture is hardly 16th inch thick. This has to take all the force of the water pump up to 300 psi so it is quite inadequate unlike the originals which have over ¼ inch in this area. It is better that it has gone now rather than on a tour!


Attachments: broken water pump.jpg (206kB)   new mirrors now fitted.jpg (151kB)   1903 White rear door open.jpg (212kB)  
Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Rog White (---.range81-129.btcentralplus.com)
Date: March 3, 2015 03:14PM

Hello Bob
I hope it's not a case of too little lap on the valves. The lower end needs more than the top end. Opening timing (crank angle) is more important than opening amount - so I've found. Better to get those equal. This may seem cheek when you've done more miles than I have - but my trouble is that I won't do the miles until I'm happier with the system. Then I'll attempt an M.O.T.
Good running
Rog W

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Steamcarbob (---.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
Date: March 4, 2015 04:25AM

Hello Roger,
I think that that is exactly as I found it. I now have good equal lap.
I have gone into more detail with the pistons which were not from this bock and the clearances are too large especially as the bores are now nicely polished out and reasonably parallel. I am going to make new pistons to fit the block having a 5 thou clearance. I have a Clupit ring for the HP side which is new or almost new, so I will make a shallower grove for that one.
The Lp bore is distinctly pitted on one side from a casting defect. I do not think that this should be a problem with two wide 0.25 inch rings and Whites obviously passed it in the early days. The bores are 15 thou and 20 thou over-sized so there has been considerable wear.
I am reluctant to get this block bored out or relined as yet. I want to make sure that it is alright in every other way first as I picked it up as a spare some years ago. I do have rings which are almost new which fit well.
Another problem that I do have is that the LP piston rod is wearing unevenly which seems to indicate that something is out of true but little is adjustable. This may be difficult to detect the cause but I am hoping that new pistons may cure that. I am using Paul's old rods which are not hard chromed.
Bob

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Rog White (---.range81-129.btcentralplus.com)
Date: March 4, 2015 06:11AM

Hi Bob
I have pitting as well in the LP cyl wall. If you have to 'rebore' make it so that the walls become parallel and no more.
Centralizing pistons. They should run clear of the cylinder wall, held by the gland and positioned by the crosshead. (On mine I can use the slack in the cylinder mounting bolts then lock them for keeps). Is there any possible way of adjustment on your crossheads? even plating one side?
Not an easy one.
Rog W

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Steamcarbob (---.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
Date: March 6, 2015 04:34AM

Hello Roger,
I think that I will use what I have at present. The new pistons that I made yesterday are about 5 thou under the bore size which is a vast improvement on the old ones. They also have new clean edges for the rings to sit in. I have a Clupit ring on the HP one which is a very good fit and White type step rings on the LP side which were new from my spares box.

Taking the cross-head off to do anything on the White involves taking the bottom half of the engine apart with the crank-shaft coming out and I am not doing that this time. All that was rebuilt by Paul Morgan when he had the car.

The thin water pump bronze casting has been repaired with a much thicker rim using TIG bronze welding. I hope that it holds. I do have a spare which is damaged also but I can repair it as a spare.
I shall re-assemble all and try again!
Bob

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