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Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Steamcarbob (---.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
Date: March 9, 2015 06:14AM

9.03.2015
The engine is back together and in the car. The pistons and rings now all have their correct clearances so these should no longer come into the equation. Not surprisingly the engine was a little tight turning over after that but soon loosened up. I gave the car about ¾ hour to tick over and loosen up before going out. I had added 4 gallons of pure petrol but had no diesel so we only have about ½ gallon diesel in 8 of petrol or 6.2% - not much but these used the old pure petrol.
I had Chris Relf with me who had just steamed his 1909 White which he had purchased off Francois de Backer and I am storing for him for the winter while he builds his garage. He just warmed it up and, as well as learning to steam it, was getting familiar with the fuel valves and parts of the car which is his first steamer. Chris came with us down to Francois near Narbonne last year and practiced by steaming my 1902 White. He retires in about a month and then will be able to really get on with it.
We went off in the 1903 White in fine style through the village but soon noticed the drop in steam temperature again and then drop in power. I turned around at the Rabbit Ground and returned but we had to stop to get up steam three times and just made my steep drive with an extra push from Chris. It seems still to be using too much steam and I cannot even keep up with it with the hand water pump. The car is enveloped in steam when ticking over although it does not have a condenser fan nor a condenser pressure relief valve so it can bypass steam easily. The 1902 White has a similar system and can manage to sit ticking over on blocks with little visible steam. On ticking over the steam temperature is just over 800deg F but it takes a long time to get the pressure up.
What next?
I shall recheck that the steam generator holds full pressure hand pumping. There are no outward signs of a water leak. The clack valves feel alright from the lack of back pressure on the hand water pump.
I am going to put a tap on the pressure regulator bypass. This should allow me to quickly check that the Finnegan Pin is shutting cleanly at the correct pressure with no leak rather than disconnecting the pipe and plugging the water tank end. I have fitted one on my other White steamers.
I still think that the problem is in the engine block and probably the valves. I have carefully avoided fitting wider HP and LP valves as yet. I have the HP valve almost ready. It will need a little more machining to get the correct fit for the rod ends and then I can try that one.
Bob

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Rog White (---.range81-129.btcentralplus.com)
Date: March 9, 2015 08:23AM

Hello Bob
Did you say Stainless steam coil?
Hope to be at the weekend meeting as I'm at present in Wales.
Regards
Rog W

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Steamcarbob (---.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
Date: March 11, 2015 04:20AM

Hello Roger,
I am not certain about the coil. On Paul's drawings it states that it should be made from "carbon steel to BS 3602 - 13.49 OD X 12 SWG". It looks to me very like stainless but it is hard to tell with the changes from the heat. I cannot get at the top coils where it would be more obvious without removing it from the car.
My pressure retesting brought up a problem. The blow off valve on the water side was very incontinent after it reached about 120 psi. It had a large grove in it which I have removed and that has improved things. The safety valve also had a weep.
I had another steam yesterday and things were much better. I managed to go around the Sancreed Beacon without stopping and then came back along the main St.Just road. This involves some reasonable hills. The car is going better up them but I do have to keep off the throttle most of the time. I think that a bit more running in will help and I am going to reduce the jet size again as there is still not a constant blow from the main jet- it tends to surge.
See you at the AGM.
Bob



Edited 2 times. Last edit at 03/11/15 05:22AM by Steamcarbob.

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Steamcarbob (---.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
Date: March 11, 2015 02:17PM

11.03.2015
I have just been playing around with some mathematics and I have worked out that my 1903 White with its 10 HP should have a single jet size of 0.066 ins
My 1908 White has three jets of 0.054 ins for the original petrol (which contained 10% heavy oils which now works well for petrol plus 20% diesel).
From the signs I thought that the jet was too large. I have just brought it down from 0.072 ins to 0.069 ins so I am heading in the right direction if my maths is correct!
For kerosene the 20 hp Whites use three 0.046 inch jets.
I work it out as 0.051 ins for kerosene for the 1903 White. To use this it would need to have a fuel tank with hexane to fire the pilot light separately and I hope not to have to do that.
I have not been able to find out what size other people use but this car had enormous jets and has a too large venturi which I have reduced down with a baffle.
It was using large quantities of fuel to little effect!
Bob



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 03/12/15 01:02PM by Steamcarbob.

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Steamcarbob (---.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
Date: March 17, 2015 05:52AM


17.03.15
My brother John, Chris Relf and I attended the club’s AGM over the weekend and stayed with Peter Stevenson who is doing sterling work on his two 1909 White Model “0” steamers. He has almost all of the parts of the two chassis restored and ready to assemble. It was good to meet up with several of the familiar faces again at the AGM where business seemed to be going on steadily.
We have had several people trying to cast the post 1907 White pilot light bodies with no success but Peter had made superb patterns and is about to cast the parts. He is going to produce complete pilot lights.
Yesterday the 1903 White and I again went steaming around Sancreed. The smaller main jet was probably slightly better and I am going to go down again from the single 69 thou to 66 thou where I calculate it should be. The variables not accounted for in my calculations are the reduced pressure that it runs at compared to the 1908 White and the fuel’s friction going through a smaller hole. It is quite likely that I have it about right at present. I have now got up to 15% diesel in the petrol. It does have a slight howl when it comes in and seems to run quite happily down to 30 psi which is at the top of the gauge so is probably the “normal running pressure” but I put it up to 40 psi and let it slowly drop. The pilot light does not like much under 30 psi and will go out at about 25 psi.
I was out for about 2 hours and did two circuits around Sancreed Beacon, off to drift Reservoir and back via St Just. I have to pump a little extra water on the hills but the hill climbing is definitely improving and recovery after starting is much quicker. I did however struggle to get up my steep drive and dumped a load of steam when I tried to restart on the steep slope. It clearly would not start on this hill as yet, which is quite disappointing. I had to reverse back down and do another mile before attacking it again making sure that I had plenty of steam. This time it was alright.
I still drop the fuel tank pressure much too fast. I think that this is the result of the too large jets. It holds the pressure when not steaming but I have to keep stopping to re-pressurize the fuel tank. I still have not managed to get the mechanical air pump air-tight but working properly. Without the valve turned off it will slowly leak and the valve is under the bonnet, so one cannot use it on the road. It is one of those seemingly simple jobs that are never as simple as they look and of course this one has been modified. It does now pump something as I have opened up the air inlet on it which was negligible before. I really need to have it working on a jig set up off the car to get it to near maximum efficiency. It took me a long time to get this part sorted on the 1902 White as they only pump a little when working properly and on that car the seal-off valve is accessible from the driver’s seat.
I have refitted the oil separator which I thought was not a genuine part but apparently it is for this year although abandoned later. It is a large object that rather obstructs the access to the left side of the engine. One puts the Drizit in the separator rather than in the water tank. I presume originally it had a cotton wool like oil absorber in it.
Bob

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Steamcarbob (---.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
Date: March 21, 2015 05:15AM

17.3.15
We did 5 circuits around the Sancreed Beacon on Tuesday and I carried up to three passengers but lightweight ones. A much better days steaming.
On Wednesday I went into Penzance with two adult passengers. Getting there was not a problem but we struggled coming back where we climb over 400 ft in three miles. I needed a little extra push up my steep drive too. The car still does not have the reserve and soon looses temperature and then pressure.
The fire is better. The water use is getting less. We still seem to have too much exhaust steam on ticking over. I cannot see how much we have loose on the road but I expect it to be too much. It still manages to dump steam on odd occasions.
It is only just over a month before we are touring with the car in Germany for two weeks and I have a nasty cold after the last weekend away for the AGM.

I am fiddling with the mercury filled temperature gauge. That has too much cable, the wrong sensor shape, and the wrong spindle in it as the insides are from a larger cased gauge. The gauge Paul had made looking the same as the steam pressure gauge. This was probably an expensive process and I am trying to sort it myself. I will then be able to get rid of my modern electric one.

Next I shall take out the engine yet again to fit the slightly larger HP steam valve that I have been preparing. Hopefully the latter will stop the loss of steam through the engine by loosing some, hopefully not quite all, of the excessive pre-T.D.C. opening which gives a little extra compression. At the same time I will check the two large simpling valves yet again to make sure that the seats are good and have not bee scoring.
Bob

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Rog White (---.range86-156.btcentralplus.com)
Date: March 21, 2015 05:46AM

Hello Bob
What's wrong with losing ALL the pre-TDC opening?
So it's an A.G.M. cold is it - (rather than a logging course one)?
Came past Shelsley W on the way back to Wales.
Regards
Rog W

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Steamcarbob (---.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
Date: March 22, 2015 07:03AM

Hello Roger,
I understand that up to about 5 deg (NIck Howell tells me that it is up to 13 degrees) of pre-TDC opening increases the power output of a steam engine. I know little about the theory or sorting of this as one tends to deal with what one has. The White Sewing Machine company designers seemed to know about it. When playing with White steamers, altering the valve timing would be extremely difficult as the eccentrics are machined onto the crank-shaft.
I just intend to reduce the pre-opening by using a slightly larger valve as I am convinced that this is the time that I have steam passing through the engine doing no work. I have tested the car in different positions along my ramps with an airline on the steam generator blow-off valve and the time just before TDC on the HP cylinder is where the air goes through the engine. It does not seem to leak past the pistons at all on most of the piston stroke.
I shall retest the system as I take it apart to see if it is the same as before. The last time I took the engine out I only sorted the pistons and their rings. I like to improve one part at a time and then have a test drive.
The car is now very much smoother than it was and the simpling system is working as it should although a small leak in one of the simpling valves will give similar problems to my present ones.
Whistling Billy and I will be at Shelsley Walsh July 18th and 19th hoping to get a good time on the hill! We go on to Les Nelson's "not a tour" in the Cotswold s.
Bob



Edited 2 times. Last edit at 03/22/15 09:40AM by Steamcarbob.

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Rog White (---.range86-156.btcentralplus.com)
Date: March 22, 2015 02:11PM

Hi Bob
About 5 is what I guessed at for the Landy - once the engine is moving. I hold that the White bros got it correct better than most. I'd nothing else to go on other than Walton's Doble book. I find your exercise most useful. The way I set the next valve (MP on mine, LP on yours) was to leave the HP valve out altogether and put a stub in the valve gland. But I found that the opening time had to be short otherwise it used up receiver pressure, resulting in the second cylinder doing no work - just being an 'air pump'. I hope that you don't run in to that situation. At least there must be documentation on what the White should be. I'm sure that there are a few compound traction engines about running mostly on the HP cylinder.
All the best
Rog W

Re: Whistling Billy Replica
Posted by: Steamcarbob (---.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
Date: March 23, 2015 12:44PM



I am very glad that my burbling is helpful to you. As you know I am struggling with this car but I am trying to take it in small steps which could be helpful to others as well as myself. Oddly enough I had few of the problems with Whistling Billy engine H4 and it went well from the start although the present bottom half of the engine (H4 )on that car is very worn. When I can get around it, I will graft the top half of that engine (the block actually came off H383 last year) onto my rebuilt bottom half( H383) and it should be a very good engine. I will then set about getting the engine bottom half H4 sorted properly and have two good engines. I have already had H4's block repaired.
With these compound White engines I am of course aiming to have a constant force pushing on the crank because the HP and LP cylinders should give the same push( Pressure x Surface area of piston) with the pistons at 90 degrees to each other. This should make the engine completely smooth. I am heading that way now with the 1903 White and cannot now feel the individual pushing of either the HP or LP cylinder.
These are my main queries;
Why will it not maintain steam temperature on the hills?
Have I now got the engine as good as it can be and does it just need running in?
Does steam still leak through the engine as I suspect, if so Why?
Is there a steam generator problem? It looks good and should be made of the correct steel from the plans of it!
Is it a firing problem? The fire is now quite strong and good to look at!
I now have just over a month to go before our German tour with 4 people in the car!
Bob

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