I had to resize some photos to get them to attach
Here are a few more.
Rolly

27.03.2016
Thank you for the replies.

Mike; am I correct in thinking that it is the carbon in the steel which causes the problem? Perhaps stainless is a better option. My hubs were weak due to being the wrong type having been adapted years ago, being hollow in the centre where most of the key was. The other side to the broken one had the key broken when I took the wheel off!

Nick: well done. You seem to be well on the way now. I know the difficulty of being isolated with a steam car that has not worked for years and putting one’s finger on the problem. It took me 5 years to sort my first steamer, the 1908 White when there were no others like it working near me. My final problem was the small size of the slots in the lovely new burner plate made in the 1960s and never used. It steamed and was alright until it was on the road and then, on full fire, the flames came out from under the car as the fuel flow was blocked through the burner. When I purchased the 1910 White that my brother now has, I tried that burner grate and we were away. The problem seemed so simple then!
We will have to have a trip out either locally or up to my brother in Devon on one sunny day soon. My 1903 White is still working.

Rolly: In the second picture that you posted, the wheels and hubs look exactly like mine from my 1902 White. My axle ends are 1 3/8 inch and the key is 5/16inch. Did you make them or are they stock items from somewhere, if so where?
Bob

Bob
I am not sure I understand your question.
I made my complete axel, spindles and yokes and wheel hubs. The bearing are off the shelf tapered roller. The axel tube is 4130 3/16 wall thickness.
The spindles and yokes are cast in A148 sutural steel 110 thousand tinsel. The hub is 303 SS
The spoke pattern is 40 spokes two spoke cross pattern. The 30 inch rims I had made in Michigan and punched for the spoke pattern.
If you want the rimes chrome platted don’t get them punched till after you have them polished and copper plated then have them punched and nickel and chromed.
Rolly

Sorry I poster the wrong photo in the previous post.
Front hub.
Rolly

29.03.2016
Hi Rolly,
I am getting confused now. The outward appearance of your hub is the same as mine but that is a front hub. My rear hubs are the ones that I am replacing at present but I might do the front ones also, so your picture is helpful.
Certainly on my 1902 White it has to take a lot of strain as there are now disc brakes fitted for emergencies on the rear axle. Originally there was just one brake in the middle of the rear axle on the chain case holding the two crown wheels and pinions. Of course the whole case rotates with the chain. Anything breaking on one side of the axle, one crown wheel breaking (as with Sir Charles Ross), the chain tightener breaking allowing the axle to rotate (one of mine) or the bronze brake drum collapsing (my last one) and you have nothing. The brakes were never adequate as is shown by the fact that it has had at least 6 runaway incidents, three with Sir Charles Ross and three with me but none so far since the disc brakes were fitted.
After the last one, the “Salvage Squad”( TV program –it is still shown occasionally) had a go at it and almost repaired it but they paid for the disc brake fitting which work on both half shafts so if one side goes you still have one side remaining working. They came off a racing motorcycle and we adapted the hand grip to work from a brass pedal matching the others. I only use them in emergencies apart from steep hills like my drive and a few years ago they stopped me hitting someone who stepped in front of the car without looking, not hearing it! I stopped sideways with her between the wheels. I broke 6 spokes in that incident! I had a retired policeman sitting up beside me and he wondered how we avoided her! That puts a lot of strain on one small keyway each side.
I have been advised by Richard Bros who have made a lot of hubs for old car for many years, to use EN8 which should be quite adequate. They say that I need to keep it quite beefy in the center where mine is hollow, leaving the outer diameter near the center where it is (2 ½ inches) to avoid splitting again. I think that I will keep away from stainless steel. Apparently, quite a lot were cast iron like mine.
Bob

Bob
If you’re talking about a key in the rear brake drum I did mask a modification.
My original rear-end and front end were so detreated the only thing I used from the rear end were the differential gears and axel gears.
My car is a 1906 and did not have outside brake drums. A friend gave me an old 1907 drum that I used as a pattern and built it up with Bondo and wood to cast new drums. The original axel had square ends. When I made new axel I made the ends tapered and put in ¼ inch key ways. I also installed combination sealed ball thrust and radial bearing inside and out on the axel ends so when I go around a corner there is no side push on the differential gears.
Rolly

30.03.2016
Hello Rolly,
Yes, your axle is rather different to mine. This 1902 White is very original and I want to keep it that way. I hope to attach a few pictures to demonstrate this early White axle. Of course you can pick me up on three anomalies.
1) The chain is not the original block chain. It was just too expensive to get and after one poor effort at getting the job done in England which was a disaster, I converted it to motor cycle chain. It could be taken back to the original if I found the right chain but the chain wheels were worn too.
2) The second thing is the disc brakes. These are friction locked onto the half shafts and can just be unbolted if desired. They are essential if it is to be still used on the roads.
3) The “special double acting brake” on the center of the rotating aluminium central casing now has an SG iron drum instead of the bronze one which collapsed on me in about 2002 and I was lucky not to be more severely injured. The car was broken in half across the front floor boards but it was already booked in to have the bottom part of the frame renewed as this rather light ash part had gone soft after 100 years and the body sagged about an inch in the middle. It pulled the body apart for the body builder!

The left half-shaft goes right across the central casing and about a foot into the right half-shaft with a steel bearing in the middle of the latter. All the parts in the central casing run on the left half-shaft including the two crown-wheels. These two crown-wheels have a pair of planet wheels bearing in the outside casing beneath the brake drum.
The next unusual part is the patented bronze pivot holding the bearings at the wheel end of the half shafts. I am attaching a picture from the manual. This adjusts for any bending in the bow above the axle to prevent damage to the central casing or the bearings.
As you see, the White Sewing Machine Company used some thought in the production of this car and it shows by the way she can keep up with the Stanley’s when touring. They sometimes overtake especially on long straight roads but I go waltzing by when they fill up with water. She is very agile on narrow roads but slows on the steep hills where the driver has to look after the steam carefully. The water tank is still the same as the earlier non-condensing cars at 25 gallons and with a condenser goes a long way on the water, running at 200 PSI and 750 deg F steam temperature.
Bob

Rollin H. White was a genius of mechanical engineer.
It shows in everything he made. But after 100 years you can expect some deterioration.
Having disk brakes is ok by me if you’re driving the car on the road.
That’s why I added the outside brakes to my car. I also added bonded shoes instead of bronze on cast iron.
For the front hubs to crack like that, it looks like a casting and not a forging. I use a lot of Ductal iron casting 80-55-06 but turning my front hubs from a solid hunk of stainless steel was easier than making a pattern and core boxes.
Rolly

Bob, going back to the embrittlement when plating - I think it is in the other metallic components of the alloy steels like EN 16 and En 24, not the carbon as I believe EN8 which is high carbon but low on other metal elements is OK to plate.But I'm no expert - so ask a real one!

On the half shafts, the hub ends seem not to be tapered and to rely entirely on the key - if so it's no surprise that they fail. Usually resistance to twisting is given by the fit of the tapered shaft to the bore of the hub and the key just lines it up on assembly. Like a Morse taper tool.

Like Rolly I have no problem with fitting upgraded brakes - be safe. I put hydraulics on the rear brakes of my Stanley Model H and made them 2 leading shoe - it stops very well for a car with no front brakes. I fitted the external contracting handbrake to self wrap when going backwards so I had the best of both.





Edited 1 times. Last edit at 03/30/16 05:20PM by Mike L Clark.

31.3.2016
Rolly,
The cracked hub was the rear left one, not a front hub. It has cracked through the keyway on the outside and is now a bit chewed up. Luckily I think the half-shaft ends will be alright as most of the copper plating on them is intact.

The hub is hollow in the middle like a front hub and should not be for a keyed hub. That is why I think that it was replaced after WW II when tyres were short and the car was got out of storage. It was probably all they could find easily adaptable and the car was in a remote location in Scotland.

Mike,
That is an interesting comment. I will chat with my local nickel plater who enjoys doing the steam car parts.
The hubs are not tapered. I have yet to break a half-shaft on this car but with little power or braking it is easy to see that the originals with their copper plating have survived. They are at more risk now with disc brakes and age than before.
Bob